Devotional Sex Forum

A big part of my understanding of Devotional Sex comes from gaining a good overview of other techniques where the man has far fewer ejaculations. Understanding other techniques enables me to borrow ideas which can enhance DevS, and to describe the key differences between DevS and other techniques.

The other techniques I've written about for many years includes kind (Femdom, Domination, Submission, Humiliation, Deniel, etc) and the Eastern Techniques of Tao and Tantra. There is also the American technique of Karezza (as presented in Cupid's Poisoned Arrow and at the now defunct website reuniting.info written by Marnia Robinson).

All of these techniques are viable alternatives to DevS when the other technique works best for both.

What I've sort of ignored until now is the movement which provides various mixes of David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man, the NoFap movement, and what happens when these are both combined with Karezza (which I call NoFap Karezza).

NoFap is a movement of men who want to give up pornography and masturbation. Wikipedia gives a summary HERE, whilst a much more critical summary is at RationalWiki HERE.

For the flavour of Deida's book, which includes the man not ejaculating, here is a quote:

The divine masculine is consciousness. A superior man practices maintaining full consciousness in all situations. If ejaculation results in a decrease of your fullness, a diminution of your presence, a collapse of your consciousness, then you should not ejaculate. Even if your woman says she wants you to. Especially when your woman says she wants you to.

Your woman will ask you to do all kinds of things, every day. Do not allow yourself to be swayed from your truth, from the direction of your heart. Underneath your woman's superficial request is her actual desire and need: she wants your passionate fullness to pervade her, she wants to be able to trust the unshakability of your loving, she wants to feel in her bones that your divine masculine presence is stronger than your distractibility.

As suggested here, the key theme of the book is that the 'superior man' is a man who reclaims his masculinity and resists any female weaknesses he may feel. Emotion is only something women feel, and the flavour of the book is that emotion is a weakness. The role of women in Deida's book is to swoon in the presence of his diving masculine presence, and if she doesn't, he should find a 'real woman' who does.

This book was first published in 1997, which predates Cupid's Arrow, and is long before the NoFap movement started. The book cannot be ignored because it is constantly in the top few best sellers on Amazon in the Medical Psychology of Sexuality, Mens Gender Studies, and Spiritual Self-Help books. Also his view of the Superior Man has been pushed by the NoFap community.

When the NoFap community wanted a hook to promote the benefits of the male not ejaculating they discovered Karezza. This significantly changed the Karezza of Cupid's Poisoned Arrow into what I've called NoFap Karezza. In about 2020 the reuniting.info website closed down. I suspect that this was because Marnia lost control over how Karezza was presented, and rather than fight for her way realized that she had lost the battle and gave up.

Where the Superior Man, NoFap and Karezza have got to is presented in The Gentleman's Guide to Karezza Sex: Retention in Bed to Supercharge Your Life by Nick Brothermore first published in 2020.

I'm now about half way through this book, and are shocked and saddened that sex and male female relationships have reached such a toxic low. Yep, you got my hint that I'm not impressed with this book and the lifestyle it proposes.

This topic is for discussing the difference between NoFap Karezza etc with Devotional Sex.

Note that this topic is in the part of the forum which can be read by anyone. See HERE for how you can reply to this post (which can be totally anonymous).

Before going into negative mode about these books it's worth mentioning that there are some very good things in both.

Masculine energy does have a role in a balanced man.

It is good to set yourself a 'purpose' which you focus on to avoid the trap of just vegging out on the numerous diversions available today.

It is good for men who have a problem with excessive porn viewing and/or masturbation to bring themselves back to balance.

And, of course, a man having far fewer ejaculations can lead to a better sex life and other life benefits for a man.

The biggest problem I have with both books is that their proposed solutions are presented as the only way to achieve the above. There is a fundamentalist feeling to both books, and both have a strong fan base of men who are certain that there way is the right way.

Her Orgasm:

How often she has an orgasm is one of the biggest differences between Karezza and Devotional Sex.

Karezza is the only sexual technique I know of where the ideal is that she doesn't have any orgasms. On the other hand Devotional Sex enables her to reach her orgasmic potential and, I believe, is thus the sexual technique which leads to her having the most orgasms.

If you look up Karezza on Wikipedia you get the page for Coitus Reservatus (also known as sexual continence). This is because Alice Stockham, who coined the term karezza, was just renaming an existing technique. Her only significant addition to Coitus Reservatus, and something which no other technique did, is adding the ideal that the women should also not orgasm.

Comparing Karezza with vanilla sex shows many benefits. But what is ignored in the books on Karezza is comparing Karezza with Taoist and Tantric practices. As I'm doing here, it's also useful to compare Karezza with Devotion Sex.

The Gentleman's Guide has a short section on 'Do Women Need Orgasm?' The book says:

Orgasm is the most addictive drug in the world, so everybody should benefit from kicking the habit and restoring balance.

If a man were locked in a cell where he could masturbate to his heart's content, and if he were deprived of food or sleep, I'm pretty sure that he would eventually have no interest in orgasms. So it's pretty silly to say orgasms is the most addictive drug. But getting back to the comparison, the key question is whether or not orgasms are highly addictive to women. More from Gentleman's Guide:

As a gentleman, you are the leader. .... A good leader can get a woman to follow him. A great leader and true gentleman remembers that what’s good for the goose is usually good for the gander ...

For another post I'll look at how both Way of the Superior Man and Gentleman's Guide are obsessed with the male leading, and in fact dominating, everything about sex. But what we see here is a classic case of the author having no understanding that what applies to males doesn't always apply to females.

In the NoFap community orgasm is "the most addictive drug in the world", but my experience (and the research) says that almost all women are not addicted to orgasms. They enjoy orgasms, and rightly would like to have one whenever they wish to when having sex. But a woman who has sex once a week, and doesn't orgasm with him most times, isn't at all likely to be masturbating twice a day to get her orgasm fix. The book says:

Ultimately, it’s unlikely that women need orgasm any more than men do.

The key word is "need". For example if two people hook-up for some normal sex, and at the very end she ends things without him ejaculating, the man will feel that he really needs to ejaculate. And this is particularly the case for the young. But if a couple hook-up, they have sex, he ejaculates, and sex ends without her having an orgasm? Well that's what usually happens with a hook-up. The man who missed out on ejaculating will get himself off as soon as he can. The women might masturbate once alone, but I don't think most women would.

What my DevS surveys prove is that when a woman has a man always eager to pleasure her in any way he can, she will use the control he has given her to enjoy many more orgasms per week than before DevS. In fact my orgasms survey found that 41% of women living DevS (ie always practicing it) have 7 or more orgasms each week. 20% have 9 or more each week. (DevS is enjoyed overall just as much by the women who can't or just don't want to have this many orgasms.)

The main benefit of Karezza (before NoFap) was the connection. So how does DevS do with this?

Not surprisingly, 26% of the women who have 7 or more orgasms per week rated 'More Orgasms' as their biggest benefit of DevS. The significant thing about this result is that 74% didn't say that lots of orgasms was their biggest benefit. (Note that other benefits can be almost as key, so the the women who did pick more orgasms will also be enjoying the other benefits.)

So what are the other benefits which these highly orgasmic women chose?

21% of the women who have 7 or more orgasms per week said that their biggest benefit is 'Better Sex' (ie what happens before their orgasm).

And the importance of connection within DevS is proven as 55% of the women who have 7 or more orgasms per week said that 'the increase in intimacy and connection and thus a better relationship' is their biggest benefit.

That the majority of women living DevS who have lots of orgasms each week rate intimacy and connection as their biggest benefit I think proves the hypothesis that her not having orgasms is best at increasing intimacy and connection is false.

This is just a first draft to get some words down. I may go back and edit this post so over time it improves

I welcome any questions or comments to this post or to anything above. See the first post here for the many ways you can post.